Gasworks To Dome

Full audio transcript.. now complete..

OK. It's the 24th May 2006. This is Rib Davis interviewing for the Gasworks to Dome Project, Independent Photography and I'm with.. could you tell me your full name please?

Barry William Evans.

Right. so.. Barry Evans.. and could you tell me where you were born and when please?

I was born in Welling, 22nd August 1943.

OK...err. and when did you first come to this area?

My grandmother used to live round in Azof Street. She lived in Azof Street. My mother was born in Azof Strret, number 53 err.. and of course the family link was there.. err.. my mother was one of err.. six children and she had six children and of course we moved back - we used to come down here to see gran and grandfather.

So what was this place like.. what was this area like then?

The area.. it was really like a little village of its own. People here... they sort of lived to look after each other. They were all working class people here whereas the management lived over the other side of the road over towards the Park, but um.. my grandfather used to work down the Gas Works.. he was.. never went to school. He could work his money out, his wages out, on the back of a matchbox right to the farthing. But that's what really brought us down this area was the fact that Mum and all the family lived here.

So you were born in 1943. What are your earliest memories of here?

Earliest memories here were.. obviously coming down to see Nan.. probably two years old.. less than two years old. I would say that was.. obviously childhood... you know.. your first recollections of seeing Nan is... sort of no date at all. It's as soon as you virtually see them.. you know.

What was her house in Azof Street like?

Sorry..?

Her house here in Azof Street. What was it like?

Corner house.. corner house of Bellot Street. It was um.. small garden in the front, very small piece of concrete in the front really. Walk inside the door and then you had the front room... I think I went in there twice. That was for high days and holidays. Nobody ever went in there. Nan used to go in there and clean it and that was it.. the door was shut nobody went in there then.

So on the occasions you did go in, what did you go in for?

Sorry?

What did you go in for when you did go in?

Um.. special parties.. special people turned up. Anybody special turned up they went in to the front room. But err... nobody else went in there and you know probably Christmas time I think was about the only time it was used.. if you went down at Christmas time then the elder people went in there.. and us kids went out the back room, but err.. it had a wide hallway, wide staircase going up from almost from the front door.. or just behind the front door. Then there was a big room on the left-hand side. That was virtually the living room. Big table, great big table.. more or less a dress-makers table. Nan used to have hundreds of people in you know and of course when you get ten or fifteen people sitting round the table she used to have this big marvellous table. Grandad used to sit at the far end right by the window in Bellot Street. Big coal fire.. and on the other side was another door and that led through to my Mum's bedroom... where Mum used to sleep. When you went through a bit further you had the kitchen, and a bit further through was the scullery.

What was the kitchen like?

Very small, very basic. Draining board and one of them deep sink. I think Nan had a.. I can't remember if she had a gas cooker or not. But err.. I don't know.. I can't think back to what she cooked on, but um.. I jcan't remember, just can't remember though. But I can remember going back through to the scullery and there was a big laundry sink in there, and a copper. Brick built - cement built block - a hole in the bottom and a copper dish that you sat on the top and used to light the fire under that was for her washing. Used to boil the clothes up there. Err.. then we went through out to the back which was like a little back yard. Grandad used to keep pigeons. The toilet was out there as well... outside toilet. So.. usual thing in those days, we has the old tin bath hanging on the wall. Bath day they used to be in front of the fire in the tin bath. Yeah it was...

The outside toilet... a bit chilly wasn't it?

Yeah. It was a big outside toilet. The old wooden seat, wooden platform and all that sort of thing you know. That's - well that was modern in those days. In those days if you had a toilet that was actually fitted to the house you were lucky. You had to walk down the back yard normally, but this was actually part of the house, but you entered from the outside.

You weren't using newspaper for paper or anything..

Yes.. Grandad.. yes.. It was Grandad's job to tear up the newspaper and tear it up and put holes in it and put a bit of string though it. But err. that was those days. Nothing got wasted.

What do you remember about the pigeons?

He didn't actually race them, I think he just kept them as a hobby you know. He had a pigeon loft there - he used to let them out now and again they used to fly around and come back - that was it - he just used to keep them. I don't think he actually.. I never remember him going out to race pigeons, but he certainly kept them there. But that was the house.. I never went upstairs... well I *did* go upstairs.. I know there were two or three or may even be more bedrooms upstairs. Come to think, Nan had six children so, you know, it was a pretty big house really.

Did you eventually come and live back down here?
Did you eventuallty come and live in this area?

No I didn't. In 1947 we moved out of a gun site in Danson Park. We lived there for a year. When Dad came out of the Navy erm.. he arranged to get a Council house. We moved in to a Council house in Holborne Road, which is behind the old Brook Hospital. We were the second people in the road actually.. being built. We moved up there and of course it wasn't far for us to come down to see Nan. It was closer than Welling where I was born to come down and see Nan. We moved in there in 1947... November.. 29th November 1947. I can remember Mum's rent card. I saw Mum's rent card.. 2 shillings and 5 pence I think it was for the rent of that house.

When you would visit down here did you ever go down to the river?

Yeah.. yeah. oh yeah... we was always about... Because it was like a village, um.. so many people knew so many other people in the area and their door was always open and of course when we used to play with the other children here we used to sort of disappear in to their house and you know nobody worried. You know.. the door was open and that was it. Not like.. nowadays I mean you sort of pick and choose your friends... pick and choose whose house you can go in and whose you can't. In those days everybody's house was open to everybody. Of course if they've got children, everybody had children around here.. and we'd be in to see them and then you'd come out and see somebody else..

That was in the late forties and early fifties you would say?

That was the fifties.. late forties, early fifties.

And in those times, what was the river like?

The river? We weren't allowed actually to go and play in the River. We actually had to stay within the Azof Street area.. you know Azof Street, Bellot Street, Christchurch Way, ?? Road... all those sort of roads around here we were allowed in, but we weren't allowed to go further.

'Cos it was dangerous?

No.. it's not dangerous... it was the fact that we never went because if Mum wanted us, to come looking down the River she wouldn't have been very happy about that. It was sort of.. you never went far from your parents. Although you weren't attached to them like apron strings you know, you never went far from them.

So were the other kids - your aunts and uncles - were they as close to your Nan as you were and was the place always full of other relatives as well?

Yeah. There was.. my cousins and all that sort of thing, we all used to meet down here and, you know get around. I had one that was.. my uncle, he lived up at Congreave Road I think it was. He had a son, one boy and he used to come down.. John... Ann and Brenda, two of my cousins... um.. then there was the eldest of Mum's sisters, who's Alice... she used to live up at the top end of Charlton. Now here two children, well I mean they were a lot older than us, but obviously my brother, elder brother, he would have had more recollection of being with them, whereas when they came to us they were sort of a teenager and sort of adults to us really.

It sounds then as if there was much more extended family than there is now?

Yeah.. yeah.. it was though everybody here was a part of the family regardless of who they were or what they were. You know, people looked after each other and children played with other children no matter who they were. We found when we came down here we was all accepted although we didn't actually live here we were accepted as part of the family because Mum came from this area and Mum knew their Mum and all that sort of thing, you know. So really it was.. we were accepted as being the outsiders coming in.

Your father, did you say he worked at the Gas Works?

No.. my grandfather worked at the...

Did *you* work for the gas works?

No.. no.. I.. when I first started I worked for the Post Office... I worked for the Post Office for 26 years. Um.. took early voluntary retirement from them in '94. Um.. did five years of just hanging about doing nothing and went to Australia and spent some time there with some friends there and come back and found the pension wasn't enough to live on so I went back to work. Now work for Sainsburys opposite the Dome. But Grandfather, as I say, used to work at the gasworks... and Nan told.. or Mum used to tell stories of coming home from school at lunchtime and running down there with his lunch.. all that sort of thing... um...

Did he ever tell stories of the gasworks or talk about it?

Sorry?

Did *he* ever talk about the gasworks?

Grandfather very rarely said anything. He thought a lot. He'd sit.. when he'd finished his meal, he'd turn his chair half-sideways and he'd be looking out the window and he very rarely said a lot.. um... he was a very thoughtful man. Um.. I think he thought more than what he said. He accepted you and used to give you love and all that sort of thing, but um.. very rarely said anything. If you got one word answer that was.. or a one word answer was enough, that's what you got. But he was just one of those people who didn't.. didn't express hisself a lot. As I say he was an elderly gentleman by the time I sort of started taking notice of him really anything. He was a Grandad and that was it, you know. Hello Grandad and that was it. Where's the other kids?.. you know and that was it. you was out and away.

You mentioned that you were at that street party.. the Coronation Street Party?

Yeah.. yeah.. yeah.. there was a big party in Azof Street - they closed the road off.. and every child that I can remember was there I think. I would say every child in London I thought of at that age. Obviously it was only a few hundred but um.. we all had a good day. There was entertainment going on.. and food was flowing.

Do you remember what sort of entertainment?

I think there was.. I don't think they brought them in - I think they were all people who lived in the area.. sort of jugglers and clowns and you name it.. you know.. sideshows and things like that.

Was there a piano?

Yeah.. yeah.. the piano was always being tinkling out.. and good sing-song. That was every night really I think they used to do that round here. Obviously by that time I was in bed, but that was a sort of a recognised thing to get the old piano out in someone's house, or even roll it out in the street.. but err.. that's the way they were.. enjoyed thereself.

What were the sorts of games that you would play as a kid around here?

He.. if anybody had a ball we would kick it about, if not we'd kick a stone about, um.. Hide & Seek, Knock Down Ginger, all those sort of things. It was all childrens games in those days you know, sort of games that you made your own. Not like now when you sort of got to get on a computer and everybody's got to have the latest games on computer, in those days it was hoop and a stick and um.. as I say if you couldn't find a football you found a piece of paper and wrapped it up and played football with a piece of paper, just screwed up paper.. that was it, you know... whatever.. skipping rope. Used to get all the girls - they used to have long skipping rope one side of the road to the other... and um..

In Azof Street?

Yeah.. yeah. I mean very few cars about in those days. Um.. I think in our road when everybody got in to houses being built and moved in I think there was probably only about four cars in the whole road.. and that was.. well, the house numbers went up to around the 400s, so you know.. we was probably.. I know my father had an early one.. one of the first. A lot of people had motorbikes. But um.. there was nowhere near the amount of cars seen in the street as there are now.

Were there characters, people selling things in the street?

Yeah.. yeah.. yeah.. oh yeah. It was.. being young you didn't see everything that went on you know.. it was too much trouble to worry about other people. You was there to play and that was it. But um.. people used to group together, go off and meet somebody else... and meet spomebody else.. that was the way they were.

Was there anywhere particular, anywhere else you would go and play?

I believe this Hall here used to be. I think they used to have Playgroups in here.. it's raining outside we'll go down the Hall and play games in the Ha ll - whatever. There was always someone to lead you you know. You were there to play and that was it as a child. One of the things that don't happen nowadays. People are sort of looking for somewhere to go to have their entertainment ready-made for you. Whereas in those days you made your own entertainment and that was it. Anything was entertaining, even if it was pulling faces at the bloke next door. Who could pull the funniest face...

Did you ever go to the cinema down here?

No.. no.

You mentioned earlier the people in the street selling things?

Yeah.. yeah.

Do you remember who, or what, they were.. what they were selling?

Um.. ice cream. Used to have a fella come round with a bike with a box on the front. Three wheel bike with a big box on the front and a single back wheel, used to come round selling ice cream. um.. coalman used to come around with his horse and cart in the later years. But before that we used to go down to the Gas Works and get it with a trolley wood.. wooden old trolley on a pair of bike wheels. We used to go down and collect coal and coke on that.

Did you have to pay for it or was it just whatever spilt off the...

I can't remember. I just used to go down there with the older children and we used to bring it back. Don't know whether we actually paid for it... or whether it was sort of put against me grandfather... I don't know, I con't remember.

It may have fallen from the loading from the ships on to the.. just fallen on to the foreshore?

I know we used to go down there and pick it up. In later years we had the old baker come round with his horse and cart. They were later years I mean I was really in my teenage years then.

What about rag-and-bone men?

Yep.. he used to come round with his old horse.. and china. All that sort of stuff, in fact I think my mother.. most of her tea services was bought off the rag-and-bone man and she'd say come back in a couple of weeks time and we'll have the dinner plates or whatever. That was the way people used to be.

Do you remember the shops down here in those days?

The what?

The shope in Trafalgar Road?

Err.. only as later. When I was 11 I joined the Sea Cadets down in the Naval College and err... we used to come out of the Naval College and go just a bit this way where there's a garage there now.. and there used to be an old cafe there and we used to go in there and have a cup pf coffee and a piece of chocalate cake, that sort of thing... and that was... I mean we're talking about nine o'clock in the evening. Where can you find a cafe open at that time of evening now? Um.. and then we'd walk home which was up at.. as I say.. up behind the Brook Hospital.. and we used to walk home.

So how often did you used to come down here as a teenager?

It seems quite regular, but when I come to think of it it's not as regular as I'd like to think it is. Probably twice a week...

That's quite a lot?

Oh yeah. yeah.. yeah.. because um.. we used to go to Woolwich, Mum used to walk us to Woolwich in the.. with the pram and do her shopping all the way back and of course she had all her other little jobs to do. We probably come down probably twice a week. My brother.. my eldest brother used to be down there a lot more because he used to come down here by hisself, whereas we only come when Mum came down being younger.

Was there a lot of bomb damage around here?

I think there was quite a few, but.. um.. a lot of.. when I come down here as a child.. as a young child I can remember sort of rough areas which I would think where the bombs had hit, um.. but um.. I think most of the people here in this area they used to well.. as soon as you had a warning that there was an air-raid everybody used to go down in to the Blackwall Tunnel... that was the air-raid shelter.. down in the Tunnel. So, by the time I got down here the war was over and you only saw what was left....

Did you.. sorry..

.. there were quite a few rough areas.. you know, sort of rubble areas around.

Did you used to play in those?

Oh yeah.. yeah.. used to play on them.. but err.. nobody said anything about it. We just assumed it was somewhere to play.

Dangerous though?

Yeah.. but as children I mean you play anywhere.. um... it was only if Mum turned around and said you don't go in that area, or that area, or that area that um.. you know that you kept away. Otherwise it was a playground - everywhere was a playground.

When did you stop coming down to here?

Um.. I can't remember when Nan died but that was.. when Nan died was the last time we down here.. really. I've been down a couple of times just to look round, but to actually come down and meet people, um.. probably when Gran died. Um.. although err... we were friends with people down here I can't even remember their names.. although we were friends with people down here, it wasn't that friendly that you kept it up and only certain people.. um.. and most of those people were the children of Mum's friends who moved away or whatever. Err.. obviously if the children got married around here - if they become old enough and got married - they moved on. And of course that was the same with Mum. We were the generation that moved out if you like.

But um.. there was so many people that we used to call 'aunt' and 'uncle'.. when they weren't really aunts and uncles, they were people that were friends with Mum from round this area.

So family and neighbours just sort of merged?

Yep... yeah. In those days... you never, as children do now they.. you know they go around and they say oh err.. so-and-so or so-and-so next door, they were always Uncle Someone or Auntie Someone or someone like that and they were given, youi know, the benefit of being elder and wiser and respect for.

So you gave them a title?

Yeah... yeah. That was.. I mean that was those days. I mean nothing changed.. It happened all over the country and all over the world as far as I could see, but um.. now there doesn't seem to be the respect for the elders that we had in those days. If they were older than you, you respected them, if they weren't - you played with them!

I'm going to jump.. because your other association here then is actually working at Sainsbury's... that's your other connection with this area, yes?

Are there any other connections with East Greenwich?

Any other...?

Are there any other connections you have with East Greenwich, apart from that period?

Not really.. um.. as I say that.. I personally don't, because as I say.. I was fairly young when Nan died, so I didn't have the attraction to come down. Had I been possibly a teenager or something like that, then maybe you know, there's always a girl down here I might have fancied or something like that but um.. at my age it was just to play and of course when Nan died, Mum didn't bring me down here anymore. She used to come down and see some people now and again, but obviously the people that she was friendly with have moved away, moved away because they were the next generation to move, you know. Whereas Nan's generation um.. they were only their Mum if you like... that was it.

Well, I'll jump then because it would be interesting if I could just ask you a bit about Sainsbury's, and how it was that you got the job there and what it is you're doing and what it's like to work there.

Sainsbury's?? well.. I went there originally for Christmas.. as a Christmas 'extra'. That was four and half years ago and they wouldn't let me leave. Um.. I wouldn't say they are great employers.. but that's beside the point.. I shouldn't say that on tape I suppose! It's a job... um.. at my age you can't find jobs very often and I appreciate the fact that they take me on and the fact they won't let me go. More or less. I mean I was expecting to be there for Christmas and perhaps the New Year and then away. But that was four and a half years ago.

So what is it that you do there?

Pardon?

What do you do there?

I work on what they call 'the back door. I um.. receive everything in that comes in to the shop for sale or the general running of the shop. The back gate is my.. the security gate at the back is sort of my domain if you like and the loading bay is my area. I work nights there, receiving the lorries and that sort of thing.

It is said a lot of stuff disappears out of the back door of supemarkets.

They try! They definitely try! Um. the problem being is that I have to account for the 'DU', what they call the 'direct unit' which is.,, it might be a cage of whatever, or a pallet of food, a pallet of beer, or whatever.

I cannot.. and I have no intentions of seeing anything going out through the gate that wasn't allowed to go out through the gate and didn't have paperworks to do so. Firstly, I'm watched by camera, the back gate is watched by a camera. and the only people that come over are people who shouldn't be there and I challenge them. We regularly get people.. regularly get people coming over the back fence and it's my job to challenge them because that is they're actually entering my domain and likely to steal my livelihood if you like. Being security-minded anyway um.. it's just one of those things that I would.. I would apprehend them and get the Manager in.. get the Police in. I did 28 years in the Territorial Army, so err.. that's virtually instilled in me because I started off as a para-military policeman and finished up as a.. in charge of transport attached to a General Hospital which I took early.. I took.. they wouldn't let me sign on for any more, so that was in 1992 I left the Territorial Army. But um.. security was one of the main things in the Army, it was in the Post Office. Becoming a Manager.. London Manager for the Post Office I needed to be security minded, I needed to look after staff, um.. hit targets, budgets, all that sort of thing.. and that's.. that put me in the frame of mind to be very secure in my outlook on life.

Just to jump back to Sainsburys.. what do you thing of the building?

What? The Sainsbury's building? Ummm.. to my mind it could have been made better.. more free-flowing with the um.. the way the food comes off the lorry and through to the shop itself. There are quite a few ways that it could have been made better. Security there um.. needs stepping up on the back door because anybody can get in there... and um.. it's so easy to do so. These brilliant walls they've put up with stones in a wire frame. They're perfect stepping stones for people to climb (laughs). So, you know, to me they were very silly on the way they've actually done it and um...

What about the energy conservation?

Sorry?

What about the energy conservation? They seem to be proud of that.

Good... yeah. I'm glad that they've thought of that way and decided to build it in that manner. Um.. I feel that quite a few other companies could do the same. I mean we've got the wind turbos ... we've got solar plates on the roof and all that sort of thing and I think it's brilliant. It doesn't emit any problems and you know it gives you the power, and I think that quite a few people could do it with their own home if you like. Solar panels on the roof is a perfect idea. Some incentive could be put that way to help people to do so.

Even in this climate!! Anyway, on that note, I'll leave it.

All right..

Thankyou very much indeed.